Elemental Children’s Ministry

30 Responses to “Generation We”

1. Rob
   November 18th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

   

   Great video! It sparks a lot of thought for me. It brought to the surface something I have been wrestling with already - “Am I working with enough sense of urgency?” “Am I willing to aggressively take risks in ministry?”

2. henryjz
   November 18th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

   

   Rob - I would love to hear more about what you mean by “working with enough sense of urgency” and “aggressively take risks.”

   As I watched the video, a lot of my thinking was how do I tap into that passion. How does the church help this generation, the Millennials, not only do these great works but help them realize that what they are wanting to do… making a difference in society by improving it… is a part of what Jesus was trying to get the religious leaders of his time (and ours) to see as part of the mission of God’s people. How do we get them to connect with a greater source of power, the Holy Spirit, to help them change the world so that this change has more than a social impact but a spiritual impact… and I’m talking more than just about “getting people saved” (which is important… don’t get me wrong)… I’m just saying that there is a source of power and purpose that goes beyond mere human potential to accomplish these amazing objectives of trying to bring some good to the world.

   Also, what can I do to help mold and shape the generation that is on the heels of Millennials? We need to be in the business of culture shaping rather than in the business of reacting to culture… Wouldn’t that be amazing to see? The church seen as an active participant in shaping culture rather than a force fighting against it… Building up the positive and helping to direct it rather than pointing out all the negative and setting up walls of defence against it…

3. Rob
   November 18th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

   

   Your response is exactly what I am talking about. The answers to those questions will take intentionality and effort. But I often feel “the church” takes forever to respond and is rarely aggressive enough to be in a leading position in the culture.

   With the team I lead, I often feel we aren’t willing to take risk that push people out of their comfort zones. We sacrifice reaching people for a “no one left behind” mentality.

   I would ask it this way: If God sent you an email saying you had 1 week before Jesus returned, how would you use that week? Whatever that is, why don’t we just do that since we have no idea how much time is left?

   I know I don’t work as if lives depend on it.

4. henryjz
   November 18th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

   

   Thanks for that expansion… I completely agree about sacrificing people for a no one left behind mentality… I think we also have a “I don’t want to seem offensive to the Christian subculture” mentality too many times… Anyway… that is a whole other can of worms.

5. Rob
   November 18th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

   

   I find that people see CM as a place they serve on Sunday. Come in, do their time and go on. If you begin looking at how to guide people into a ministry mindset through discipleship, many just “don’t have time.” Instead of aggressively seeking those who get it and spend your time investing in them, we often feel the need to slow things down to help those who are just too busy finally come around.

6. henryjz
   November 18th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

   

   That is true. It takes very intentional culture reshaping over time to get people to see CM as the frontlines in being able to not only be a part of making history but also an amazing place to receive discipleship.

   I think CM has sold itself short by simply equipping people to do CM and not intentionally shepherding volunteers just as much if not more than the kids… I’m experimenting with that right now It will show up as another blog post Oh so many thoughts and so little time

7. erin
   November 18th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

   

   Wow, Henry, I think you’ve never articulated it better. The part I’ve copied here probably best explains a critical element of (y)our ministry philosophy:

   “..not only do these great works but help them realize that what they are wanting to do… making a difference in society by improving it… is a part of what Jesus was trying to get the religious leaders of his time (and ours) to see as part of the mission of God’s people. How do we get them to connect with a greater source of power, the Holy Spirit, to help them change the world so that this change has more than a social impact but a spiritual impact… and I’m talking more than just about “getting people saved” (which is important… don’t get me wrong)… I’m just saying that there is a source of power and purpose that goes beyond mere human potential to accomplish these amazing objectives of trying to bring some good to the world….We need to be in the business of culture shaping rather than in the business of reacting to culture… Wouldn’t that be amazing to see? The church seen as an active participant in shaping culture rather than a force fighting against it… Building up the positive and helping to direct it rather than pointing out all the negative and setting up walls of defence against it…”

   I think what has changed most in me is the realization that many, many people in our world, not just Christ-followers, are “good” people and want good things for our world. This video is not a “Christian” video, but it certainly speaks of restoration, doesn’t it? There is a certain level of restoration that humanity can experience without God - good health, good nutrition, good education, good relationships. I feel like as Christ-followers, we should support the “good people” who have great goals and things planned. We shouldn’t have the us-against-them mentality that is prevalent in too many circles. And as people are restored and relationships with each other are reconciled, we can also point them in a direction to have a relationship with God. Probably not saying anything new, but that’s what I thought about when I read your post and these comments.

8. Rob
   November 18th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

   

   I would like for us to share ideas on intentionally shepherding volunteers. It is my number one focus right now and I could use another perspective.

   We have taken good steps in creating the beginning structure for discipleship but now we need to get the process started. It seems slow at first but my hope is it will pick up speed.

9. henryjz
   November 18th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

   

   erin - thanks for the encouragement (what a wonderful wife ) I will have to copy that stuff to another place so I can keep that on file!

   rob - i guess my next post will be on what i am doing currently for shepherding volunteers

10. Brian Jones
    November 19th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    

    The very last part of the video makes me skeptical, at least of the video itself, and it’s producers. Red flags just go up when I hear them urge the importance of gen-we.org. What exactly is Pachatusan, LLC trying to accomplish? I couldn’t find much info on the site about the company itself. Why is the site important?

11. henryjz
    November 20th, 2008 at 12:43 am

    

    I can understand your skepticism… I wasn’t so much interested in the site but in how well they did portray the Millennial generation. All of the stuff that was said is very well documented concerning Millennials. It is one of the most pro-active, hopeful and largest generations since the baby boomers. Hopefully, they continue to be as they grow up.

12. Desiree
    November 23rd, 2008 at 6:58 am

    

    I think what Brian is trying to say is that we don’t really know who put out the video. We should be examining the people who put it out and what their agenda is because it may have an effect on what is in the video. I know you see it as truth and full of hope but I see it as propaganda. I am “WE” generation btw.

13. henryjz
    November 23rd, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    

    Again, I understand the concerns about the “propaganda” that might be evident. Like I said before, based on all the study and reading I’ve done from multiple sources, this video does typify the Millennial generation. I know that there will always be exceptions, but the sentiments in this video do express the majority of those in the Millennial generation. Whereas Gen X had a hopeless and apathetic view at things (again, generalized), Millennials are very proactive and hopeful of what they can accomplish. Thus the point of putting the video on. And the challenge for the church to be more instrumental in the shaping of a generation.

14. Brian Jones
    November 23rd, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    

    I’m totally cool with acknowledging the “millennial generation” under whatever name. I don’t think the video really discredits the concept.

    Although, for my own personal fun it would be fun it would be an interesting project to uncover what Pachatusan is up to. I do not know if that’s a millennial thing or not, or just something we would like just because of the irony. Anyway…

    I think in other literature the Millennials are sometimes called the Net generation. Part of me likes that term better. Not because it’s my field, but I’m always amused when I see how connected grade 8 to high school teenagers are connected. For example, yesterday I was reading an article on the Globe and Mail about National Kick a Red Head Day (originated in BC), and I showed it to my brother in law, who then told me that he already knew about it from friends at school, and on friend in BC.

    Brian.

15. henryjz
    November 24th, 2008 at 7:05 am

    

    You’re right about the names, Brian. Although Millennials is the most popular name for those born between 1978 and 1998 (roughly) there are other names such as: Net Generation, Genearation Next, Generation Y…

    As for your own personal fun… It does fit into the mistrusting of ad campaigns and such

16. Desiree
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    

    I did a little checking about the gen we site and it is being endorsed by Harry Reid and Arianna Huffington of the Huffington Post, Both strongly democrat. This is their propaganda. This is the def of propaganda from wikipedia.

    Propaganda- is the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.

    I have a hard time believing an 8 year old has any political awareness that their parents and teachers haven’t given them. Yet somehow we are saying they are going to bring hope? I live in Oregon which is very liberal and my observation is that we (my generation) don’t have anything better then the rest of the generations. They are cynical and question everything that hasn’t come from themselves. Yes they are tired of all the agendas, and thus have decided to opt out. They have decided to say “screw you” to the previous generations and make it up as they go along. The problem with this is they are ready to throw out their roots. They have put themselves in the highest authority and if they aren’t careful they will repeat history’s mistakes.

    There is nothing new under the sun. If this really is the generation that is coming up, then we should be concerned. I didn’t see hope, I saw arrogance. I see this video echoing the agendas of secular humanists. If this is what’s coming up, then the way we need to shape this generation is to get them to turn back to God. We need to help children gain a desire for the Bible so they can discern what God’s plan is for them. Let the Holy Spirit teach them.

    I love themed events, however sometimes those things aren’t as effective as we want them to be because the only way it has staying power is when they can see how it fits into the larger picture. Because we only have so much time with them, they have to take some initiative for their own faith. They need to not be afraid of the Bible because it is a big book and there are “boring” parts. I think churches somehow need to be discipling and mentoring more and figuring out how each age group can learn from each other.

    This is a link to an official secular humanist site so you can see what I’m talking about, and see what they are about.

    http://www.secularhumanism.org/

17. henryjz
    November 24th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    

    Desiree,

    I appreciate the work you’ve done looking into the video. I agree that, yes, we need to point people to Christ. That is what I’ve been saying and continue to say.

    We have to be careful, though, of not being as arrogant as we are so quick to point out in others. The desires for better education opportunities for everyone, access to affordable health care, helping people out of poverty, being better stewards of our environment are more than just humanist agendas… they originated in Jesus’ agenda as well. Jesus came to do more than just make a way for us to get to heaven. He came that we might have “abundant life.” He came to bring hope to the poor, freedom to prisoners, health to the sick and to set people free from oppression. All of these aren’t just metaphors for spiritual things… Jesus also meant these in the physical sense.

    I know that you would agree with all those… What makes those same goals stated in the video arrogant and humanistic (like I did mention in the post) is that these goals are not being accomplished through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit but from the “power” of self. If we could just put down the boxing gloves for a second and try and see where God might be in all of this, then maybe we could build a bridge to those represented by this video and more effectively show them that God wants some of those same things and even more and wants to empower them to be able to accomplish some of those goals and more.

    Unfortunately, too much of the Church teaches us to constantly beat people up. My challenge is to look past the agenda and see the immense desire for positive change and the desire to be a part of change, which wasn’t evident in the past two generations (Gen X and Busters). Also my challenge for those in CM to be aware that we not only are responsible for making sure children come to know Christ but we are responsible and can be a part of creating and shaping what the generation coming after the Millennials will be like.

18. Desiree
    November 24th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    

    I’m not sure how any of what I said was arrogant? If you are talking about the Propaganda def it was only to define terms, which is important for discussion. My points were to back up what I had said previously. I feel like you not actually listening to what I’m saying and I wonder if you even looked at the sight? Don’t dismiss it because secular humanism SEEMS extreme. My point is that when you look at it, it DOESN’T seem extreme to the world we live in. I feel like the church is embracing all of their points without realizing it. The difference though is that they say you can have all the best things in life without God, including ethics and morals. And they are actively trying to remove God.

    I think we disagree on what Jesus was actually doing here and that is why we have difficulties in discussing. Jesus came first and foremost to save us. We can’t brush that aside or flippantly acknowledge it and then move on. We can make our society a better place but if we don’t show them they need a savior, they ultimately won’t be saved. And what good is that?

    When we look at the beginning of the Bible it starts with the fact that we sinned and we need someone to come and reconcile us to God. The OT points the way for that person, Jesus (of course). When Jesus talks about living life more abundantly, it is because we are no longer slaves to sin. Obedience to God brings freedom.

    Yes, I think we have freedom to enjoy our lives, but this world is not our home. This life and what we did this weekend is not what it’s all about. We need to offer them hope that is different than what the world offers. Yes, we can show them where THEIR hope comes from like Paul did at mars hill about the unknown god. We shouldn’t completely separate from culture but we can’t envelope ourselves in it either. The way to do this is to read the Bible like crazy so we can “enter in” without really entering in (be in the world, not of the world). Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    Even though we don’t always agree on everything, I thought I did give solutions to what we should do to shape this generation. I myself am part of the Wegeneration, so will you listen? I am Wegen and am currently leading Wegen. I am trying to talk about the methods we use.

    I know we both agree on the discipleship of parents, which is how I even came to where I am now, because of CM. I am leading the 20’s/30’s age group right now and am still (but less so) involved CM. My husband is more the CM person now. Anyhow, this IS my area of interest, this generation. I have dedicated the “Non-child-rearing” part of my life to serving them. I don’t get paid, but I do have a passion for it. I really would like to be a part of the discussion even though I have a different perspective. I think I have that sense of urgency that Rob is talking about.

    I went to the Lead Now 20’s/30’s conference recently and I think you would have really liked it (if you didn’t go to it.) I really liked some of the speakers and what they had to say. They were Francis Chan, Margarite Feinberg, Matt Chandler, Todd Phillips, and Erwin McManis. Don Miller did a broadcast too. I felt more drawn to the first four but maybe we can find some common ground there.

19. henryjz
    November 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    

    I apologize for making you feel unheard. I get the sense that you are quick to point out the negative and what you don’t agree with… I may be misinterpreting you. In posting the video and the commentary I had with it, I was simply pondering on how much children’s ministry actually played a part in forming the Millennial genearation. I may be overly optimistic and idealistic, but I think that the Church can be instumental in creating culture and forming the values of a generation. I was also pointing out that we need to help people be aware that the change they are seeking is not a desire that has been birthed out of their own potential… God birthed those desires, and that kind of change can only be fully realized by tapping into the power the Holy Spirit has available for them if they choose to surrender to God and be reconciled to him as well as reconciled to themselves, others and creation.

    I’m glad to hear you went to the Lead Now Conference and are being influenced by people like Chan, Chandler, Phillips, McManus and Miller (I don’t know who Feinberg is and couldn’t find anything about her.). If you like what they are saying, then you and I probably agree more than disagree. I read and am influenced by many of the same writers, thinkers and theologians as they are. We may just be looking at things from different perspectives. I haven’t jumped off the deep end of orthodoxy.

20. Desiree
    November 25th, 2008 at 1:22 am

    

    Ok. Cool. I guess to sum my thoughts all up is that I am trying to respond to what seems to be the theme of Elemental and asking ourselves what is the best way to do CM. I think those methods extend into the 20’s as well because of the culture shift. I would like to start talking about that more on this site. I thought the post you did about Lichen really was good and it started to talk about it. I also was interested in the post (I think) talking about children’s worship, whether it is done with parents or not. I want to talk about things that are more tangible, not that the things you are bringing up aren’t relevant but in the past (at KCAG) I have noticed good practical advice from you. I think that is a strength for you. I think that a lot of people want more of that verses just philosophies. When we talk about big church v.s. little church, it will bring up philosophies but not in such a broad sense. I guess I want to talk about what works and what doesn’t work. It’s definitely good to keep people informed so I’m not saying you need to do a drastic change of some sort but it would be nice if there was a way that “conservative” and “liberal” Christians could have more constructive discussion that actually leads somewhere.
    I’m sure that was your goal with the video but it’s a little hard when it is so broad and it is put out by someone with an agenda.

    I think it would be a cool approach to look to the Bible, because that is where Christians share the most common ground. It is less political. What if we looked at what Jesus talked about? I will always be skeptical of “new ways” of thinking and videos that are propaganda unless we are able to talk about the aspects of it that make it propaganda. I do think that the Bible speaks in a timeless manner and so even though things in our world have changed, people as a whole, and God have not changed. Thus, there is nothing new under the sun.

    Did you attend the Lead Now leaders conference? I went to it expecting techniques and “things” to do. I was surprised to find that most of the people seemed to say get back to knowing God through prayer, and Bible reading. Then we will be able to live out our faith the way we are supposed to. It seems like an outdated method but the Bible speaks of HOW we are to witness to others and be a living sacrifice. I think we need to be liberal in love and mercy but conservative in theology. Of course that may be opening a whole new can of worms. I don’t mean to ramble so hopefully you get what I’m trying to say. I guess I want good comprehensive answers to what the Bible has to say on things. Less political. I hope that makes sense.

21. Desiree
    November 25th, 2008 at 1:29 am

    

    Btw, it’s Margaret Feinberg. I misspelled it. Sorry. I haven’t had a chance to really look into what all of them say but I liked what they had to say at the conference. I wasn’t as inspired by McManis but I don’t know much about him. I don’t care for Don Miller’s political ideas that much, as you know but I liked what he said at the conference. I’m sure it is related to the mentoring project. I need to find out more about that. So much, so little time…

22. Erin
    November 25th, 2008 at 3:14 am

    

    Kidology is a great site for practical advice and discussing “what works” in children’s ministry. I think this site is more committed to discussing upcoming trends that influence our culture, and how that does or should affect children’s ministry. Henry’s hobby has always been to look ahead to what’s coming up culturally speaking, and this has been a great way for him to articulate his thoughts.

23. Rob
    November 25th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    

    Wow! Great conversation. I wish I was as well thought out as you guys.

    I want to respond to Desiree’s “what is the best way to do CM?”
    For the first time, I am finding my satisfaction in God. In the past I would say, “God needs to be the only thing that satisfies me.” Which really meant - I can find satisfaction in other things but it should be God. God has opened my eyes to see that there is NO satisfaction in anything else but Him.

    What does that look like practically? ( **Warning** complete honesty ahead) For the first time in my adult life, sex isn’t the driving thought in my head. I have to tell you that created a huge sense of freedom for me. It has helped me see everything differently including the gospel. (no Jesus, no freedom) I now have something I am excited to share. Oh, I have shared the gospel with people but it is hard for them to understand when “life” seems to be working for them. But freedom and joy no matter what the circumstances? Now that is something totally different.

    Where does CM fit in? Parents have got to come to grips with this kind of relationship with God so it can be nurtured in their kids. It has completely changed me as a parent.

24. Desiree
    November 25th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    

    Hmm… Very interesting. Thank you Rob for joining the conversation. I appreciate you being willing to share an example from your own life. After I read your post I sat back and thought about how what you are saying, and what Henry is saying or posing, and what I am saying relate to each other.

    What resinated with me about what you said is “Oh, I have shared the gospel with people but it is hard for them to understand when “life” seems to be working for them. But freedom and joy no matter what the circumstances? Now that is something totally different.” In our class right now we are studying prayer and one of the guys in there basically wondered why we should even pray for the things we need because he knows that God will give him what he needs. He gave examples how God took care of his need before he even prayed about it. Now we both know that the Bible tells us to pray and recognize the source. But it can be hard to really grasp that when things seem to be fine.

    I’ve been reading the book “Have a New Kid by Friday” by Dr. Kevin Leman. In his book he talks about how we lose the battle when we engage in our child’s rebellion. Instead of going toe to toe with them, he talks about letting reality be the their teacher. It’s letting them live in the consequences of their choices. I had a battle with my preschool aged daughter this morning and it was only until she realized she couldn’t accomplish what was important to her until she did what I wanted her to do.

    I think this really parallels what we are talking about here because people will never except God until they see a need for him. They will have to come to terms with the fact that even in their quest for goodness and meaning, only God can fill the “God shaped hole” that is missing from their life.

    So what does this mean? I think that is what part of what the Lead Now people were saying by telling us to focus on our “inner life” through scripture reading and prayer, and following the Holy Spirit’s leading. We can’t force people to see their need for God. God has to bring them to that place, and when they are ready, they will see and want the “something” they don’t have. That is when they will be ready to hear what we have to say. That is when they will recognize that sin is not freedom but actually slavery to their own sinful nature. Knowing God and obeying him is what gives true freedom. It seems like such a backwards concept which is why we can’t force it.

25. Rob
    November 25th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    

    Here is an example God gave me a glimpse of today.

    I am sitting in a cafe’ having a coffee and reading through Psalms. (139 to be exact which is awesome in regards to what we are talking about) I see this teen girl in the parking lot waiting by the car for the driver to come out and unlock the door. She is very concerned about her looks as she trys to get her hair just right and checks over her outfit.
    I thought to myself: she will never be satisfied because she sees her value in her ability to attract the opposite sex. Her circumstances will never allow her to do that long term and she will find herself empty trying.

    But what if she found sufficiency in God? She would be free! Free to love and experience all He has for her! Could she be approached by someone she trusted to show her that? I say yes.

26. Josh
    December 5th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    

    The founder of Gen-We is Eric Greenberg, a wealthy and influential democrat with a heart of gold. Eric enjoys his cash, but he gives a lot of it away as well. He donated a ton of cash to UCSF towards a lab that studies breast cancer and pediatric cardiology - they named the lab after him.

    The vast majority of American Christendom equates their faith with conservative politics. Yet, beyond the issues of homosexuality and abortion, the biblical Jesus presents a far left progressive agenda on virtually every other issue, while reminding us that the Kingdom is NOT found in politics (top-down leadership) but in shared community and servantship.

    I found HenryJZ’s reply to be the common “party line” U.S. Christian response to a secular humanist like Greenberg. Yet, in Desiree’s responses, I sense a willingness to drop the baggage, look past the partisanship, and embrace the good and true wherever it may be.

    Just because someone doesn’t see the world like we do doesn’t mean they’re not used of God in myriad ways. God does work in mysterious ways, is not bound to our understanding (of which we lean on far too heavily), and God is certainly not a Christian.

    Time to move past Christendom and reach out and work with those we may not always agree with. This is real faith - real missional awareness - and it is a far more effective form of evangelism than the kind that sets up ideological barriers.

27. Josh
    December 5th, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    

    If anyone’s interested, you can download Eric’s book for free here: http://gen-we.com/sites/default/files/GenWe_EntireBook3.pdf

    Looks like someone I would want as a friend. Folks like this are treasures - they care about people, the planet, and our collective future. As Christians, if all we have to offer is a historical event granting pie in the sky after we die, we’ve so missed the point of faith. The Kingdom is here, now.

    Greenberg sees the need for an Apollo-like program to get ourselves off fossil fuels. I couldn’t agree more - I think this is the #1 structural issue facing our country (and planet) today. I support Greenberg’s Gen-we agenda, yet I’m sure we could find plenty to disagree about elsewhere (!).

    Can we learn how to live in a plural culture, embracing both our faith and those we may at times disagree with? I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that, over coming generations, the insular, institutional, finger-pointing, wall-building, us-against-them, Fox News kind of faith that characterized late-20th century Western Christendom will fail.

    In it’s place, we will see the emergence of a faith that embraces all peoples, not for their beliefs, but for their innate worth as creations of God.

28. henryjz
    December 5th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    

    Josh,

    Thanks for commenting. I think you have misread my comments and am confused that you came to the conclusions about my comments that you did. I don’t disagree with what was said in the video at all and I have no issue with Eric or his political standing. In fact, I tend to lean more left in my political views. I did quite the opposite of what you stated. I praised the optimism and desire for positive change and I think we need to engage that and help those with a secularist viewpoint to see that there are those who do follow Christ and hold a high view of Scripture who want the same things… but for the reason of being a part of making God’s invisible Kingdom visible.

29. Josh
    December 5th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    

    Henry, sorry! I read blogs so fast that I often get the names mixed up. And for the sake of full disclosure, Josh is a pen name..

30. henryjz
    December 5th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    

    No problem Josh. Glad to have you interacting on the blog and appreciated your thoughts. I do the same thing when reading blogs and such!